| 21 March 2003 at 18.35.32 ZuluTime
|
Posted by Damien [24.159.250.195 - 24-159-250-195.jvl.wi.charter.com] on 21 March 2003 at 18.35.32 ZuluTime:
apollojedi: God is not complex, God is simple
apollojedi: just like a mind is simple, not complex
apollojedi: ideas can be complex
apollojedi: but not minds
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, a human mind is incredibly complex.
apollojedi: minds are simple entities
apollojedi: no Zombies
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, actually, yes.
apollojedi: Ideas are complex, but the mind is a simple entity
apollojedi: God is "simple" as an entity
Zombies minion, Damien: The nuerons in the human mind have been shown to be one of the most complex and ordered objects in the known universe.
apollojedi: Zombies, fraid not
apollojedi: you are speaking of the brain, Zombies, not the mind
Zombies minion, Damien: Okay apollo, are you just going to jump up and down and shout 'no no no!'?
apollojedi: Zombies, you are speaking of the brain when you refer to neurons
apollojedi: right?
deadman_932: apollo..define mind, then..
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, okay then, what exactly is this 'mind' and how is it seperate from the brain?
apollojedi: the mind is a simple entity (not made up of parts)
deadman_932: apollo..define mind, then..
apollojedi: Cartesian Dualism is the place to start Zombie, familiar with it?
deadman_932: apollo..define mind, then..
Zombies minion, Damien: Dead, why do I have the feeling that apollo is going to walk right into the maw of a semantics guillotine?
apollojedi: brain and mind can interact but have different properties
deadman_932: zombies: it's inevitable
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, just define 'mind'.
apollojedi: because you don't know what you're talking about Zombie
deadman_932: stand by for a storm of semantic snowscreen
Zombies minion, Damien: Quit dancing around and define it apollo.
apollojedi: mind is an entity which has properties
zenpunk: mind is a process
zenpunk: no an entity
deadman_932: well, duh, apollo
Zombies minion, Damien: So far, you've been condescending and have used avoidance tactics, but you have not given me any definitions, apollo.
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, everything in this universe is an 'entity that has properties'
deadman_932: what properties, apollo..and from whence does this "mind " spring if not from the brain?
Zombies minion, Damien: Could you narrow your definition just a little?
apollojedi: mind is the entity which contains the self, incorrigibility, conscience, and reasoning power
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, actually all these are found within the brain.
apollojedi: it interacts with the body (mind/body dualism)
apollojedi: wrong Zombie - matter does not "think"
deadman_932: apollo, from whence does this "mind " spring if not from the brain?
deadman_932: oh, shit
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, if you hit the brain, self, conscience, reason, and incorrigibility are effected.
deadman_932: heh
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, actually, yes it does.
apollojedi: yes, because they interact
apollojedi: which I have said four times now
deadman_932: apollo, let me remove half your brain and see if your mind is not affected
Zombies minion, Damien: The electrical signals produced within the brain are what trigger thoughts.
Indon Dasani: the mind is not independent from the physical self.
apollojedi: you atheist, why not quit shouting?
apollojedi: you are making a fool of yourself
Indon Dasani: the laws of the universe are more than great enough to encompass all that is a man within it.
deadman_932: whoa, big ass explosions
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, so a mind is something that can only do what the brain does, but does not have any evidence for it's existence?
deadman_932: wow
apollojedi: no, the mind and body interact but that does not mean (1) the mind is seperate and (2) can survive the body.
deadman_932: apollo, that's nonsensical
apollojedi: sorry, that does not mean they are NOT seperate
apollojedi: my mistake
apollojedi: let me rephrase
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, you have yet to show that this mind even exists.
Zombies minion, Damien: So far, everything you've said can be attributed to the brain.
deadman_932: i gotta watch this..heh
Indon Dasani: and has been demonstrated as part of the brains' function.
Zombies minion, Damien thinks this will look good on gremlin.net.
Indon Dasani: the mind is just the brain of people who don't want to admit that their brains are capable of doing everything that they do.
apollojedi: the mind and body interact but that does not mean they are the same thing - they are seperable, have different properties, etc,
Indon Dasani: except that the brain seems to have no different function than the mind...
deadman_932: okay, apollo, show me evidence that the mind and brain are "seperable"
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, I don't give a shit about how they interact, I want to know, what is the mind? What evidence do you have that it even exists?
deadman_932: don't just say it, show me evidence
apollojedi: if enitites have differing properties, they are not the same thing (law of identity)
deadman_932: lol
deadman_932: apollo, is that a PHYSICAL LAW?
apollojedi: Zombie, you have to have a mind to even type or think that.
deadman_932: is that a BIOLOGICAL LAW?
apollojedi: both
Zombies minion, Damien: No I don't apollo, a brain is more than sufficient.
apollojedi: even if the mind and brain are inseperable, you have to have a mind to type what you're typing
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, no I don't, a brain is more than sufficient.
apollojedi: you have to have a mind IN ORDER TO DENY A MIND!
deadman_932: apollo, show me evidence that the mind and brain are "seperable"...dont just continue with ambiguous, empty rhetoric...don't just say it, show me evidence
apollojedi: brain is mattter, and matter doesn't think!!!!
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, are you going to put up evidence, or are you just going to continue to beg the question
Indon Dasani: you have to have a brain in order to make up something that does the same thing.
Indon Dasani: apollo; sorry, but you're typing on thinking matter.
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, you've already been proven wrong on that point, why do you continue?
Indon Dasani: not SENTIENT matter... but thinking matter.
Indon Dasani: yes, there's a difference.
apollojedi: i know what begging the question is and I haven't done it
Indon Dasani: yes, we do know how to create sentience in a computer.
apollojedi: where have I been proven wrong?
Indon Dasani: why aren't computers sentient? there's no reason to make them.
apollojedi: can matter think? yes or no?
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, yes you have, you're assuming the existence of this 'mind' before it's been proven.
deadman_932: apollo, show me evidence that the mind and brain are "seperable"...dont just continue with ambiguous, empty rhetoric...don't just say it, show me evidence
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, yes.
pure_idea: a. The number one is a concept or idea. b. Ideas can only exist in minds. c. The number one is eternal d. The number one is immutable. e. The number one must exist independently of human minds. f. There must exist an eternal and immutable mind.
deadman_932: pure: that's called the categorical mistake or fallacy
apollojedi: it is undeniable that the mind exists, for it takes a mind to deny a mind
deadman_932: apollo, so far you've shown that a mind exists
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, more empty rhetoric, once again, do you have ANY evidence?
apollojedi: so Zombie is saying that matter in itself can think
deadman_932: now show me that the mind and brain are separable
Indon Dasani: apollo; look. do you know what a computer is?
deadman_932: show me that the mind and brain are separable
apollojedi: not empty, mind is undeniable, go ahead, try to deny it
Indon Dasani: and YES, computers think.
deadman_932: show me that the mind and brain are separable
Indon Dasani: apollo's ignoring me.
Zombies minion, Damien denies the existence of 'minds'.
apollojedi: everytime you deny the mind you affirm the mind
Indon Dasani: someone give him a computer science lesson.
Indon Dasani: teach him about fuggin vacuum tubes, for God's sake, it's the same principle.
deadman_932: apollo, all you have done is show that the mind exists....show me that the mind and brain are separable
apollojedi: the reason they are seperable is that they have different properties
Indon Dasani: then he'll complain about scale, and you note that that's moot.
deadman_932: WHAT PROPERTIES?
deadman_932: SAY IT
Blueberry_Goose: bah, i think if one suffered brain damage, it appears to be evidence that 'mind' and 'brain' aren't inseperable
Zombies minion, Damien: Apollo, um, no I don't, seeing as how A) They don't exist according to your definition of them, and B) There is absolutely no evidence for their existence.
apollojedi: things that have different properties are seperable
deadman_932: DON"T JUST BULLSHIT
Indon Dasani: then he'll complain about sentience, and I'll come in and note that properties of AI which define sentience.
Zombies minion, Damien: Indon, yup.
apollojedi: when you think of the color pink, there may be a corresponding reaction in the neurons, but there is nothing "pink" in the neurons.
apollojedi: so the properties differ
deadman_932: apollo, all you have done is show that the mind exists....show me that the mind and brain are separable
Indon Dasani: then he'll just stubbornly say, "Matter can't think!" and we'll say, "What the hell do you think you're connected to the internet on?", repeat.
apollojedi: read DeCartes
deadman_932: oh, bullshit
deadman_932: you said NOTHING
Zombies minion, Damien: Ah yes, and digestion is a seperate entity from the digestive system, and so that's where thoughts come from, and every time you deny that, you prove it.
apollojedi: don't take my word for it
deadman_932: apollo, all you have done is show that the mind exists....show me that the mind and brain are separable
Indon Dasani: Descartes=/=computer engineer and AI designer.
deadman_932: descartes indeed
deadman_932: man, i hate mystical crap
Zombies minion, Damien: Dead, he hasn't even shown that, he's shown that the mind, if it did exist, is exactly the same as the brain.
apollojedi: digestion and digestive system do not have seperate properties
apollojedi: they are the same (identical)
Zombies minion, Damien: Yes they do apollo.
Zombies minion, Damien: No they aren't apollo.
apollojedi: on the phone be right back
shouldistayorgo: this reminds me of that witch trial scene in The Search for the Holy Grail "therefore, she is made of wood"
Zombies minion, Damien is posting this one on gremlin.net.
Zombies minion, Damien (damien_the_blasphemous) left the room.