heart_shaped_cross: "The atheist forgets that what he is affirming is, precisely, a negation." -- Marcel Proust (Agnostic)
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, what do atheists affirm?
     oni_koneko_damien: l Since you're making that claim.
     heart_shaped_cross: the non-existence of God .... something which they are in no position to know
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, no they don't.
     scream_reaver: heart: whoops, wrong
     oni_koneko_damien: l Try again.
     heart_shaped_cross: yes they do, look up the word
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross, an atheist is someone who is not a theist.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, I don't have to, I know the word, and it's Latin roots, by heart.
     lisa_the_insomniac: heart_shaped_cross, you look up the word. You obviously don't know what it means.
     scream_reaver: Heart: I'm an atheist and don't say that. Obviously, you're mistaken
     oni_koneko_damien: l I am an atheist, one who lacks a belief in any deities.
     extropian_knight: I am an atheist and an agnostic.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ A = without. Theist = one who believes in deities (god/s). Atheist is one who lacks belief in deities.
     fred_flintstonensis: þ heart_shaped_cross how dare you try to impose YOUR definition of what we are upon us
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ Like A-symmetry
     oni_koneko_damien: l I do not affirm the non-existence of something that is undefined as the affirmation is completely unnecessary.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Now, would you care to try again?
     heart_shaped_cross: an agnostic is one who neither believes nor disbelieves. Thats why there is such a word, so as not to confuse it with atheist... the belief in a godless universe.
     lisa_the_insomniac: Atheism, at its heart, is a LACK of beliefs about gods. In a way, a negation. A negation of BELIEFS of gods. A negation of evidence for gods. Not a negation of the existence of God.
     fred_flintstonensis: þ that's like a Klansmen trying to go to a NAACP meeting and explaining to them what an african american is
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, once again, completely wrong.
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross...NO, the word agnostic has NOTHING to do with belief.
     lisa_the_insomniac: I'm not even an atheist, and I don't have a problem grasping this concept.
     heart_shaped_cross: precisely, knight
     oni_koneko_damien: l An agnostic is one 'without knowledge', in other words, one who believes that proof or disproof of a deity is impossible.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Belief has nothing to do with that.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heartshaped, Incorrect. A without, gnosis knowledge. An agnostic states they do not KNOW one way or the other. Try reading Huxley, the person who COINED the term.
     oni_koneko_damien: l An agnostic can believe in a deity (be theist), or lack belief in deities (be atheist).
     extropian_knight: heartshaped cross...agnosticism is not an alternative to atheism/theism ...it is a seperate issue.
     lisa_the_insomniac: heart_shaped_cross, agnostic is not some midpoint between atheism and theism. You can be an agnostic atheist. Or an agnostic theist.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ Hence I am atheist and agnostic. I lack BELIEF but do not claim to KNOW
     heart_shaped_cross: oni ... such a belief would imply knowledge... the agnostic does not pressume to infer impossibility
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, wrong again, belief has very little to do with knowledge.
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross. No...if you are not a theist, you are an atheist. If you lack the condition "theism", then you are an atheist.
     oni_koneko_damien: l In fact, belief is often placed in the absence of evidence (aka: knowledge).
     lisa_the_insomniac: agnosticism is a claim about knowledge, atheism is a claim about belief
     oni_koneko_damien: l Lisa, or lack thereof.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heartshaped, Incorrect again. I believe that the cyclic theory coherently explains cosmology, but I do not KNOW.
     lisa_the_insomniac: Theism/atheism is about what you believe (or don't believe), about deities and religion. Gnosticism/agnosticism is about how strongly you assert you KNOW it's true.
     heart_shaped_cross: oni.. the agnostic, unwilling to affirm knowledge, would by no means affirm something as flimsy as belief
     the_acosmicist: heart_shaped_cross: It's a common misconception that "agnostic" is somehow 'in between' theism and atheism. You are correct that "without knowledge" is the literal meaning of the word. When you try and compare "without knowledge" to "without belief" and try to say that they can be in the same category, as some kind of 'grey area', you destroy the actual meaning of "agnostic". I am an atheist, I lack belief in deities, I am ALSO agnostic, I lack the knowledge to profess that they neither exist or do not exist.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heartshaped, Wrong again. Your complete lack of knoweldge of Huxley and related issues is painful.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, wrong yet again, an agnostic affirms that knowledge of deitys' existence is impossible, but make no claims about belief.
     oni_koneko_damien: l An agnostic is either atheist or theist.
     cogito_ergo_sum_atheos: heart_shaped_cross, you'd be wrong about that too. There are plenty of theists who hold that the existence of god is not within the realm of human knowledge, but still affirm a belief in god.
     cogito_ergo_sum_atheos: The Jewish philosopher Maimonides is an example of that. He held that absolutely nothing could be said of god's properties, on the position that to do so would introduce plurality into the godhead.
     the_acosmicist: "knowledge" has nothing to do with "belief". EVERYONE is either theistic or atheistic, you either believe in a god, or you don't... the "atheist" category also includes the category of people who "believe deities do not exist".
     heart_shaped_cross: You guys may be right, but those definitions just encourage confusion... better to clearly delineate between lack of belief, disbelief, and belief... three words, makes it a whole lot easier, no?
     cogito_ergo_sum_atheos: A lack of belief is disbelief.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, wrong again, our definitions our not only adequete, but fit the Latin roots far better.
     oni_koneko_damien: l That, and lack of belief and disbelief are synonymous.
     cogito_ergo_sum_atheos: disbelieve: transitive senses : to hold not worthy of belief : not believe
     extropian_knight: Heart Shaped...that is why I call myself "Agnostic atheist"
     the_acosmicist: note that a "lack of belief" is not necessarily a "belief of the negative"
     extropian_knight: I am both agnostic (towards the existence of god(s)) and not a believer in them.
     heart_shaped_cross: oni - do you realise how obnoxious this "no again" bullsh@t is? Just contradict me, if you're going to.. but dis the self-righteous "once more, incorrect" crap, k?
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heartshaped, Only confusing if you have less than three active brain cells. The rest of us manage fine. A/Gnostic A/Theist works just fine.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, quit repeating fallacies and I'll stop.
     oni_koneko_damien: l I don't think that is that harsh a request.
     heart_shaped_cross: i agree with acosm
     oni_koneko_damien: l You came in here pretty much slandering atheists, I think I'm more than entitled to point out your errors.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heart_shaped, Well you changed that view at least. It's a start.
     heart_shaped_cross: oni - im not asking you to stop contradicting me, im asking you to quit the parrot act.
     evilapparatus_wiccan_kitten: parrot act
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, quit the parrot act? Practice what you preach, you're the one who came in here repeating a fallacious quote.
     evilapparatus_wiccan_kitten: how is he acting like a parrot?
     oni_koneko_damien: l I at least have the dignity to use my own material.
     evilapparatus_wiccan_kitten: damien
     oni_koneko_damien* tickles kitten.
     evilapparatus_wiccan_kitten* giggles
     heart_shaped_cross: oni - if I am slandering anyone, which I am not, it is those who believe that there is and can be no God. If you do not apply the term atheist to this definition, as I do, then feel free to disregard it.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Kitten, apparently saying 'wrong again' is acting like a parrot, despite the fact that I explain *how* and *why* every time.
     heart_shaped_cross: oni - I have the humility to acknowledge a well-turned phrase.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heart_shaped, They would be positive atheists. Which are a fairly small number.
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross, you are talking about "strong" or "gnostic" atheists....you should be more specific.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ damien, I smell "Damn I fucked up again QUICK change the topic"
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, fuck that. I label myself as an atheist. Unless I had gone through and shown how your definition was incorrect, you would have assumed that I matched your fallacious definition, and would have proceeded to lie about my beliefs.
     evilapparatus_wiccan_kitten: lol cassie
     the_acosmicist: heart_shaped_cross: the set of people that "believe no god exists" are also atheists, but you should be aware that if an agnostic person answers "no" to the question, "Do you believe in a god of some sort?", they are atheist too,
     extropian_knight: I am both an atheist and an agnostic...to claim that agnosticism is superior to atheism is to create a false dichotomy...they aren't mutually exclusive nor do they refer to the same thing. I can understand how you came to misunderstand them, at one point in time I did too...but in the future you should address only the type of atheists who actually make the claim you have an issue with.
     heart_shaped_cross: oni - i appreciate that you are providing reasons for your argument,... but is it so difficult to understand how "wrong again" can come off as intensely annoying, especially if it is repeated over and over again? Dont take it personally, just recognize that its annoying - whether you wish it to be or not - and dis it.
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross, did you catch that ^ ?
     lisa_the_insomniac: heart_shaped_cross, people who strongly assert there IS NO GOD are atheists. But that is not atheism. Atheism is a LACK OF BELIEF in gods. From strongly believing they are IMPOSSIBLE and ABSOLUTELY DO NOT EXIST, to having no belief in them but being open to evidence to the contrary. The only thing all atheists have in common is the lack of belief IN DEITIES.
     the_acosmicist: heart_shaped_cross: the people who answer "yes" are agnostic theists, such as those that profess that knowledge of God is unattainable, and noone can actually "KNOW" whether or not God exists, but hold a strong belief that God does. These are also the same people that say "Faith" is the most important thing.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ damien, Ahh you are supposed to change your every word and gesture to make them feel comfortable. Silly you
     lisa_the_insomniac: It's not a hard concept.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, if it annoys you, oh well. I say it because, simply put, it's true. You came in here and repeated a bunch of strawman claims often used by fundies, and I was obliged to treat them like I would any other fallacy.
     scream_reaver: Xi: Flexible language... words mean whatever you want them to
     heart_shaped_cross: lisa - I'm looking in the dictionary right now, and it seems we are both right... there are multiple definitions of atheist, one of which states that an atheist is one who believes in a godless universe.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ Grrr dictionary abusers again
     cogito_ergo_sum_atheos: How hard is it to understand that atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of god, and that think that gods do not exist obviously also do not believe in the existence of gods?
     the_acosmicist: heart_shaped_cross: there ARE two, for each set of atheists
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross I realize you are being bombarded by a lot of posts but did you catch my last point and do you accept it?
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, most atheists don't accept that definition, mainly because it only describes a very small percentage of them.
     cogito_ergo_sum_atheos: Why do we keep on having to answer this at least once every day?
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ -sigh- Yet again, Lesson one on what a dictionary is and how it is compiled and why it is often useless in topic specific discussion.
     silkside2003: light, it is quite amazing the accusations that fly by in this room, why don't
     oni_koneko_damien: l It would be like including, under the definition of Moslem, "One who believes christians are demons".
     Ahraii* Male 19 from Omaha, Nebraska, United States alias Ahraii
     oni_koneko_damien* licks Joshie.
     lisa_the_insomniac: heart_shaped_cross, yes. But most atheist sources would tell you atheism is about a LACK of belief. Even though the general population (most of whom are theists) see it as a belief there IS NO GOD. The GOOD dictionaries will not just list what the general population defines it as, but what the group in question defines it as, and even what the word originally meant.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ A dictionary is a RECORD of COMMON usage. That is, linguisticians record language common in the day, and also what the majority of people believe it to mean. See newly added terms like bling bling. Or, prior to the increased education on Buddhism, many in Australia and America beleived Buddha was a god. Dictionaries reflected that belief until education increased and the common usgae reflected the actual term.
     heart_shaped_cross: oni - fine, then you admit you are unreasonable.... go ahead and offend people needlessly if that appeals to you, .... I've said what i had to say about it - that it is possible for you to argue your point without preceeding your arguement with the words "wrong again" every time - it annoys me, you dont care, thats all there is to it... I cant stop you from intentionally annoying me, I can only make you aware of it.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, back up that slander, now.
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross can you at least acknowledge you were mistaken?
     evilapparatus_wiccan_kitten: damien doesnt offend me
     oni_koneko_damien: l You claim that not only am I unreasonable, but I've 'admitted' it.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ As they are general, and LAYMEN's terms, they rarely reflect the original menaing, etymology or field specific meaning (jargon). Hence when having a discussion about science, a general dictionary is useless, same applies to many other topic specific discussions, and espe cially so in debate.
     oni_koneko_damien: l I'm calling that as bullshit, now back it up, retract it, or be proven a slanderous fraud.
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross, you misunderstood the meaning of the words, we called you on it, now please acknowledge it.
     lisa_the_insomniac: We get atheists in here who are anti-theistic, who assert there absolutely is no god, etc blah blah blah. But most atheists I know say they see no reason to believe there is a god, but are willing to admit they are wrong if convincing evidence is provided.
     extropian_knight: Then you can go on and be defensive on another issue.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heart_shape, Your fallacies, font and constant whining offend me. Die, please. Oh wait, but that would require you to change everything to suit ME, but hey you expect others to do it.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, I'm waiting.
     the_acosmicist: lol @ xiphie ... "Die, please."
     oni_koneko_damien: l You've called me unreasonable, and claimed I said I was unreasonable, back up these claims, retract them, or be proven a liar.
     lisa_the_insomniac: heart_shaped_cross, you DID come in here using logical fallacies and false definitions. oni_koneko_damien was pretty polite in pointing out you're wrong, and why. He's not unreasonable at all. You were the one who got rude.
     evilapparatus_wiccan_kitten: damien do you really expect that out of someone like that?
     heart_shaped_cross: Its really a moot point. I didnt come in here to argue semantics, but to argue that the belief in a godless universe is absurd,.... perhaps i was wrong to categorize this as atheism, but that is beside the main point.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Kitten, it never hurts to try.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heart_shaped, Great, why is it absurd?
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, strike one, neither evidence, nor a retraction of your slander against me.
     sundevil_90: how is a godless universe absurd?
     the_acosmicist: heart_shaped_cross: that IS atheism, just make a note that not all atheists assert that there is no god...
     heart_shaped_cross: lisa - are you even hearing what im saying?
     cogito_ergo_sum_atheos* shakes his head. First, we get someone in here misdefining atheism in a room of atheists, and now he's playing the martyr because he's been corrected.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, strike two.
     oni_koneko_damien: l One last chance, either back up your claim about me, retract it as mistaken, or be proven a liar by your unwillingness to do either.
     heart_shaped_cross: oni - you're an obnoxious ass, you know that
     oni_koneko_damien: l Heart_shaped_cross, very well, fraud, you were given more than a fair chance.
     evilapparatus_wiccan_kitten: heart and what do you call yourself?
     fred_flintstonensis: þ oni_koneko_damien YOU'RE an obnoxious ass? I knew I added you to my friend list for a reason
     lisa_the_insomniac: heart_shaped_cross, I have yet to hear a valid argument that a "belief in a godless universe is absurd", but if you think you have one, then please share it with us.
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heart_shaped, See now YOU are going out of your way to offend someone. Tsk tsk. Answer the question. You made an assertion about "godless universe", why is it absurd?
     oni_koneko_damien: l You called me unreasonable, I gave you a chance to back that claim up, but instead, you decided to call me an 'obnoxious ass' on top of since.
     the_acosmicist: I'm glad I'm not the only person in here to argue over the "dictionary definition" of "atheism"
     lisa_the_insomniac: heart_shaped_cross, yes. I heard everything you've said. And know why most of it is wrong.
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross...do you find theism equally absurd? This is what I never understood, certain theists will say "(strong) Atheism is illogical because you'd have to be god to know there is no god" and yet, they feel that faith-based theistic beliefs are perfectly rational. Fucking pot calling the kettle black.
     oni_koneko_damien: l Since you have no interest in backing up or retracting either claim, you are a liar, a troll, and a fraud.
     oni_koneko_damien: l And now you are iggied.
     *** heart_shaped_cross will be ignored for 7 days.
     oni_koneko_damien* ignores heart_shaped_cross for trolling.
     scream_reaver: I hate when people take 20 seperate lines to complete one fucking sentence...
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ damien, It doesn't appear they are interested in supporting ANY of their claims...
     oni_koneko_damien: l Xiphoid, such a pity.
     oni_koneko_damien: l You'd think such idiots wouldn't know how to use a computer or enter a chat room, but no such luck.
     extropian_knight: heart_shaped_cross, clearly you're a lost cause.
     sundevil_90: is heart going to back up its claim that a godless universe is absurd or not
     xiphoid_thanatos: ¥ heart_shaped, Why don't you stop bleating like a goat and answer the question that was a response to your own point. Why is the idea of a godless universe absurd. Last chance
     the_acosmicist: heart_shaped_cross: I would counter that argument by stating that beliefs that deities either exist or do not exist are equally absurd
     oni_koneko_damien: l But hell, I guess giving it three chances to back up its slander against me was being 'unreasonable' in its warped, arealistic worldview.
     

Follow Ups:

• What did you really expect from a childmolester? posted by Gremlin [24.8.18.225 - c-24-8-18-225.client.comcast.net] on 23 May 2004 at 23.39.07 ZuluTime (0)