Posted by Baron Greenback [12.253.230.83 - 12-253-230-83.client.attbi.com] on 26 July 2002 at 02.04.53 ZuluTime:
In Reply to: souls and the afterlife posted by Andy on 26 July 2002 at 00.24.41 ZuluTime:
Revelations chapter 14 seems to talk only of the people that end up in heaven, although you are correct in that Israel is mentioned in chapter 7. The verses that lead credence to the hypothesis that only 144,000 men were able to go to heaven (although that's opposed to the 200,000 people that were to be in the horseman's army, the rest of the population of earth being considered as the Gentiles or others exempt from the gospel according to the book of Mathew). The problem is, in chapter 7, it mentions all the children of israel, and in that context, is used to describe all of christ's followers, as it is in other parts of the book. This, in and of itself, is not all that convincing I realise. However, when we look for more context in chapter 7, we find... "1": And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. "9": After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; "13": And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (presented only to show the exclusionary nature of this passage). "1": And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. "3": And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. "4": These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (presented only to show the qualificatory nature of the verse) The bible seems extremely clear, especially with the numbers given in Revelation 9 and 11 (no conspiracy theories out of anyone), about there being 144,000 that make it into heaven, 200,000 in the Army of the Beast, and a whole lot of bystanders, some of which end up being judged as recieving the gospel, some by the old law, and some actually ommited from the entire shebang when they go into hiding. Anyway, there are only two branches that actually take Revelation seriously at this point, one of them being Babtists, and the other Unitarians. And, of course, the Unitarians enjoy using it to point out that this deity need not be omnipotent untill the very end of the end, among other things, so they don't really count.
This case, of course, is much better presented when quoting from Revelation 14...