Posted by Gremlin [12.255.181.7 - 12-255-181-7.client.attbi.com] on 12 July 2002 at 01.25.32 ZuluTime:
In Reply to: The posted by whoami on 12 July 2002 at 00.45.25 ZuluTime:
I'd got the impression that you'd looked over the site a bit; maybe not. I get hit with the dumbest possible twits claiming to have proof of deities. And that proof, ninety percent of the time, relies on the lack of evidence that deities don't exist. Statistically speaking, anyone claiming to have proof of deites is going to be an idiot nine times out of ten. Or more. The neat thing about sweeping generalisations is that they're generalised. I'm documenting the standard tactic; obviously, there are minute deviations in each debate. About your list:
1. I hit your message board and suggested proof of a deity. This proof is not concrete evidence. I would place it more along the lines of a mathematical proof, akin to a theorem, which, when approaching such an elusive topic, is expected to be full of errors but may hold a glimmer of truth inside.
Proof supercedes evidence. True proof couldn't be contested. Evidence is anything testable which leads to a conclusion. To supply evidence of a deity would be to show why you think one exists; to show proof would be to show that one really does exist; to show mathematical formulae--presuming the numbers all work out--may or may not qualify as evidence of a deity. I'll have to look at it first; and we're still waiting for you to post it.
2. I never expected the board to believe me, however I did expect the board to discuss the topic with me once the email was received.
The board has made every attempt to discuss the topic--even before there was any EMail. We're still waiting for you to advance the topic beyond the reasons why you haven't yet.
3. No one believes me? This is to be expected actually. No, it’s not because I’m some yvwh Calvinist who believes that the only way is for god to pick you. It’s because you, as humans, love your assertions and would sooner quit your job than change one so central to your core. I am the same way.
I'm not sure what that analogy is about. I've traded jobs before. And, where information is concerned, if I don't know something, I'm far more likely to admit it than to bluff my way past it; in the event that I assume I know something, and I turn out to be wrong, I try to be the first to admit that and correct myself.
4. I do not intend to insult anybody, and if I do…I do. I assume that throughout this discussion you will also be stepping on my toes. You know what though? We’re online and meanings can be distorted even more than they tend to be in person.
The EMail tactic was a little insulting. I'm not sure what an EMail has to do with anything. You posted A, Greenback posted B, you read B and understood B to be a request for exactly what the EMail was designated to request, and then posted C to express that you were holding out for this immaterial EMail.
That aside, we're still waiting for the evidence [or proof, as you called it] which you implied that you had in your initial post; all anyone is seeing is more excuses and tangents.
5. No flame-war is being started, I hope.
Not yet. But again: the statistics warn of its probability.
6. I may be laughed at, but this is what happens amongst written debates simply because the two parties do not see eye to eye, and humans love laughing. Secondly, if you instantly believe me I will lose all respect for you. I hope that your assertions are well grounded into your character and personality.
Actually, I laugh at people in oral debates too. I just don't care. As for my assertions, I'm careful to avoid making any. The burden of proof is solidly on the party making the assertion--in this case, the party asserting that deities exist.
7. Open minded people wouldn’t require said evidence? I believe you may have run into people who have said this. I hope to assure you that I am not one of them. My understanding of being open minded is to accept evidence that is contradictory to what you believe.
It's not a matter of what I believe, but what I don't believe. I don't actually believe in anything. I either determine the facts behind an assertion or I dsregard it. Another tactic of most theists is to claim that I have a positive belief in a lack of deities. If that were the case, then I'd have a list of all the things I ardently believe don't exist, from deities to invisible pink unicorns to teapots orbiting Pluto. You don't need a list like that, because you can simply decline to believe in a thing without developing a belief that a given nonthing does in actuality not exist.
8. Where is there truly victory in a debate? The victory is found in each individual walking away satisfied that their ideas were fully expressed. If an audience is present, there may be a winner in regards to who was the most eloquent, or if prejudiced, who’s beliefs made the most sense to them.
In a true debate, or trial, or circumstance where differing stories contest each other, there is a winner. A judge ascertains whose story is supported by enough facts to be considered true.
In this case, because you're the only one with a story to tell, you'll have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this deity of yours exists. It's really no different to accuse someone of being the creation of a deity than it is to accuse them of murder. Without convincing and accurate evidence, the case is thrown out.
Incidentally, the good news for you is that you can win or lose; I, on the other hand, have no way to win or lose, because I'm just testing your evidence against reality. If your deity were to exist, and you'd be able to show that it existed through your evidence, I'd go ahead and accept that it existed. I have no problem with accepting that which has been proved.
9. I hope to end up in a heaven. You assert that you will continue in your life, hopefully prolonged through stem cell research, and then if science hasn’t discovered the secret to eternal life perish and your body will slowly decay.
Two worrisome factors here.
First, heaven is a byproduct of the bible. Unless you're using some generic term for eutopia, you're suggesting that you're a specific sort of christian, which contradicts a number of things you've already stated.
Second, reread what you just wrote. You hope to end up in heaven. If you hope that there's an afterlife, and I don't hope so, it doesn't really affect much. If there is, then there is; if there isn't, then there isn't. Hoping that one exists, or thinking it's unfair that there might not be one, is not going to magically create one. Which is why I neither hope, assume, nor even care whether there's an afterlife: it's a waste of time to wish for things which you either have waiting for you or not.
10. If you ever wish me to leave, I will do so. I will firmly believe you to be close minded if you do request my leaving without just cause (i.e. flaming, stalking, hacking…whatever).
At the moment, I'd be disappointed if you left. I'm waiting to see this evidence you think shows a deity to exist. --Gremlin
Beyond that, I don't really care whether you leave, whether you've accomplished your goal or not. Provided you don't cause attrition--and my historical example of that is the Global Village Idiot known also as Uthraptor, BangBang, Yutz the Alien, and Kevin Stern--you can lurk and post as long as you like.