Posted by Jeremiahthirtythreethree [24.69.255.204 - px3wh.vc.shawcable.net] on 26 February 2003 at 08.08.53 ZuluTime:

In Reply to: I forgot about you.... posted by Gremlin on 23 February 2003 at 14.51.22 ZuluTime:

Well, at this point I won't get into "which" deity exists .That's a great topic but would be a distraction at this point from the whole thrust of what I am trying to argue.

Is the universe eternal? Do only those things which can be empirically verified have meaning? This idea [ that only those things which can be empirically verified have meaning ]..... called "logical positivism" came out of the enlightenment period.It is very prevelant today. It is argued that since you can't measure something or observe it with your senses that it therefore does not exist. Well can you empirically verify that only those things which can be empirically verified have meaning ?

Or can you emperically verify the boundary between the edge of your chair and the air next to it ? where is the boundary? [ think about it ]

What is an idea? The firing of neurons, electricity jumping across a synaptic gap in the brain? Can you see an idea?

Or a kiss. Is it just the meeting of two mandibles and the exchange of saliva in varying degrees? It's much more than that. You can see a kiss but can you "see" how it "feels?"

Or if you have kids and they rush into the house from school and say "daddy,daddy!" is that just volumes of air being forced through the esophegus by the diaphram through the mouth, causing certain waves and patterns of air to reach the fathers ear where it causes a tiny bone to vibrate in the ear which then translates into signals to the brain which the brain receives from the ear to make the fathers "heart" leap at the sound of his children coming home to him?

Is the existence of God challenged because he cant be seen?

     It doesn't logically follow that if one cannot see something or taste it that it does not therefore exist for the reasons stated above.

Anyways...............Is the universe eternal? I have posted everything that follows before and will post it here because of its relevance.

Well now that we've finally come to our senses and agree that there are reasons WHY and that things don't "just happen" we can move to the next step. "Food for thought [the cosmological argument]" was written to demonstrate that logic inescapably makes it necessary to affirm that something is self existent.
      Is the universe self existent or is there a personal being who is self existent who gave the universe its existence???
      Contemporary science claims that the universe had a beginning. The popular theory today , is the big bang theory. There are others by the way but this one at least right now is the most popular and seems to get the most attention by the media.
      It is said that about 12 to 14 billion years ago on a tuesday afternoon the present universe was compressed into an infinitesimal point of singularity,in an eternal state of inertia when all of a sudden KABOOM!
      A couple of things come to my mind. What was "around" the singularity if there is no space,no atmospere ,no nothing ,where was the singularity ?
      Secondly , the law of inertia states that ....things that are at rest tend to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force and things in motion tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force ...so...if the universe was in fact compressed into an infinitesimal point of singularity in an eternal state of inertia what ...and here comes that word again.... "caused" it to move? Who lit the fuse? Why did it move?
      The third thing that comes to mind is.... lets say in fact that the universe is in fact impersonal [ ie. pure material only, no spirits,no souls,no god ,just physics ] .... why is the inanimate universe contemplating its own existence? You and I and every person since the beginning of time has contemplated his own existence? If Man is just material , physics , a biological machine , one section , one small part of the material universe why is it, that he/it contemplates its own existence? Why is a material universe doing that?[side note {remember that classic police album!...the ghost in the machine, good album.]
      Fourthly , granting there was a big bang , was it purposeful or purposeless and depending on how you answer what value does it give to your life or anyone elses in the big schema of things? [ I am not poking fun but am asking in sincerity.]

.........anyways........Is that proof for the exsitence of God? For some it might be. For some it might not be. I don't know if its proof or not but it is something to think about. At least in my opinion it is........ok, enough speculating……..

      The universe has many things in it like planets,galaxies,suns,moons,black holes,pencils,pens,paperclips,computers,living things,big things ,small things,etc,etc. All these things are finite. I define finite as something which has limits,boundaries,is transient and is ultimately dependent in terms of its ontology [ ontology : a 50 cent word for "being"] ....finite is the opposite of infinite which I would define as limitless,boundless,not transient and ultimately in regards to its being ,ontologically independent.
      Having said that…..is the universe as it is , in its present form and structure , finite or infinite remembering that I am talking ontologically not geographically? [ not in regards to space but its being ].......
      The obvious answer is no!.......why?.....because the universe as it is in its present form and structure, is finite. There was a time when there was no earth. There was a time when there was no sun, no starbucks , no cars etc ,etc .These things had a beginning and eventually they will disappear given enough time....the universe in its present form and structure like you and I are finite and subject to change.
      Now...going back to the first argument we concluded that something necessarily is eternal.
      If that which is eternal can't be geographic for the reasons stated above then that which is eternal must be transcendent , superior in quality , existing outside the material universe and so not limited by it. If we are looking for that which is "eternal" we should not look under a rock or in a cave somewhere, that would be the wrong way of thinking or looking for “the eternal”. The “eternal” necessarily is not subject to "change" , the material universe is subject to change, therefore “the eternal” is necessarily transcendent or ...."above and across", the material universe.

Therefore since something is eternal, an IMMATERIAL, infinite, self existent being exists and therefore CAUSED the finite material universe to come into being!