Posted by Gremlin [12.255.181.7 - 12-255-181-7.client.attbi.com] on 12 July 2002 at 02.07.04 ZuluTime:
In Reply to: proof for my belief? posted by Andy on 12 July 2002 at 01.55.57 ZuluTime:
If matter and energy--which are interchangeable, by the way--can be neither created nor destroyed, then matter and energy have been around for all of time.
Where you run into problems is when you suggest that there was a source which created that which can't be created. Which leads to the companion theory that matter and energy are not eternal, and are created by something from time to time.
If that's the case, then you have to wonder when the material/energetic creator was created, since we now have this idea that neither matter nor energy are eternal. Which leads to one of two basic possibilities.
Either your deity was created by another deity before it created the universe, or matter and energy are eternal and the universe has always existed in some form or another.
Personally, if a thing exists, I see no need to assume that it was created at some point. If I see a car on the street, I don't assume that it had a creator until I've been able to ascertain the existence of General Motors. The same goes for the universe and everything naturally in it. The universe evidently exists; deities evidently don't. You can't use the universe to show that a deity exists; you have to show that a deity exists, and then show that it creates universes.
Otherwise, I could look at a car, assume that it was created at some point, and pretend that it was created by a deity. Or, even better, I could look at the universe, assume that it began one day, and pretend that it was manufactured by General Motors.
--Gremlin